Apprenticeship change of employer - dates

It is the last day in learning with their previous employer/first day in learning with their new employer.

The new employment status record would reflect the start of employment with the new employer.

HTH

Have always advocated for using learning dates in scenarios like this, since the ILR dates you're going to be closing/opening require learning. 

I think in the context of 319 as whole it's reasonable to assume 319.3 is referring to restarting learning with their new employer, as 319.1 talks about placing them on a BIL:

P319.1 Record the apprentice as on a break a learning on the ILR after 30 days;

P319.2 Ensure that a change of employer is declared on the apprenticeship service against the existing record to ensure that the same course is carried over to the new record one the apprentice restarts with their new employer;

P319.3 Withdraw the apprentice from the programme if they have not re-started with a new employer after 12 weeks. 

Admittedly this is a little interpretive. You could argue it means restarting the apprenticeship as whole rather than learning, but I'm less comfortable with restarting 'employment' as this could mean a significantly larger gap than 12 weeks between last date in learning and restarting learning. 

UPDATE - Just had this back from the SD to confirm it should be the employment dates and not learning dates. 

The date they left employment is the last day of employment - the first day of employment with the new employer is the date of return.

When a learner transfers employer, and the time between old and new employer is more than 12 weeks, you should use a withdrawal and restart without an agreed break.
Recording restarts (without an agreed break in learning)
https://guidance.submit-learner-data.service.gov.uk/21-22/psm/article/apprenticeship-recording-changes
 
Please use Withdrawal Reason 40 when closing the programme; this will exclude the first instance of learning from QAR.

That's pretty interesting, particularly the advice about using code 40 where it's a change of employer and not a change of qualification. I've never heard that suggestion before, and certainly never seen it in the guidance, but maybe this is their way of ensuring the NARTs meet their targets? Perhaps we'll see it in black and white in their detailed change of circumstances guidance, whenever that gets published. 

The issue I've got with them saying use the employment date is that it's inconsistent with their advice on withdrawals and breaks, where you need to use the last learning date. It also begs the question, what if they did no learning for 3 weeks before leaving employer 1, found a new employer after 11 weeks, but didn't start learning for another 3 weeks.. that's 17 weeks gap in learning. Also, surely there needs to be evidence of learning on their restart date, not just "he/she was employed". 

Many questions! 

I also asked about the dates we use when a break is required between 30 days and 12 weeks and they confirmed that we can also use the last day of employment as the last day in learning and first day of employment as the return. 

Where learning is not taking place we will follow the guidance on implementing a break if no learning in 2 consecutive calendar months but by being able to use employment dates it will result in less BILs for us as most change employer within 30 days. Historically when we have used evidence of learning it always took them out of this resulting in lots of BILs which caused confusion for learners and coaches and resulted in activity and OTJ issues.  

I am going to implement this and see how it goes. Will be sending the employer a form to complete to process the change of employment and that reply will confirm the start date and give us the evidence we need. 

I mean, if true, that's definitely very helpful. We experience similar re. the change in employment happening much quicker than the gap between learning instances with each employer, so It'll definitely help mitigate the admin of the enforced BILs. I think I'd prefer it to be in the actual guidance, but I'm particularly risk averse haha. I may see if I can get an email from the desk myself to put in our "you told us it was okay" folder

If you get a different reply please keep it to yourself Ben ha ha!

I tend to agree with Ben over this and it is possible that misinterpretation over the advice from the SD may be the issue.

My interpretation is the SD are correct in that ‘The date they left employment is the last day of employment - the first day of employment with the new employer is the date of return’ refers to the 30 days and 12 week period in the rules and not the data entered into the ILR for the last day in learning and the restart date, the guidance is clear for the restart date it must be the ‘Date on which the learner restarts the programme after the break’ be this a BIL or a restart without an agreed break.

I can see the rational for using withdrawal reason 40 but the QAR limits this as it must be 120 days or less than the Learning Actual End Date of the original programme.

I like Ben would expect this to be included in the guidance or as a minimum from the Help articles from the apprenticeship service.

Understand what you are saying Martin and think after reflection I agree. 

For the dates between employment we use the employment date, so if less than 30 days between last day in employment and start of employment no BIL. If 31 days to 12 weeks in employment dates then its a BIL and still using employment date. However the dates of the BIL would then be the dates in learning, so last day in learning start of BIL and return to learning for the return. 

Still helps us with the gaps in employment using the employment dates so less BILs required. Appreciate both of your inputs.