Tracey Widdows commented, 02 January 2025 11:13

Hi Desiree This was the reply I received and they were unable to give me a definite answer and did not reply to my further email regarding not updating the EPA price in the ILR and DAS but ensuring we have the paperwork signed by the employer to show the correct price as this would  result in no overclaim. Reply from ESFA The issue arises when there are TNP3 and TNP4 records involved. Consider the following. TNP3 Date : 10th May 2023 Price : £2000 TNP4 Date : 10th May 2023 Price : £500 So here this is declaring that the remaining cost as of 10th May 2023 is £2,500 made up of £2000 training costs and £500 assessment cost. If 4 months down the line in September 2023 for example, we need to adjust those costs then we can do this as there is no apprenticeship service to worry about. Let’s say there were on programme earnings of £100 for May, June, July and August for example totalling £400 then the remaining cost in September would be £2,100. This could be recorded as TNP1 Date : 18th September 2023 Price : £1,700 TNP2 Date : 18th September 2023 Price : £400. So here we are declaring that the remaining cost as of 18th September 2023 is £2,100 made up of £1,700 training costs and £400 assessment cost. We have adjusted the cost of the EPA (reduced £500 to £400). We have also considered the earnings between May and September. So, without the apprenticeship service it’s straight forward. The problem arises when the apprenticeship is funded through the AS. There will be an employer’s record with a start date in May 2023 with an agreed cost of £2,500. As soon as the second set of TNP’s are recorded with a date of September this will trigger a DLOCK_07 as the £2,100 cost does not match the £2,500 on the employer’s record. So, what are the options. Option 1 The first option which is probably the neatest option data wise would be to stop the employers record with the cost of £2,500 with a stop date of September 2023 meaning the last payment is August 2023. Create a new record on the AS which would be for that same employer with a start date of September 2023 (to line up with the new TNP3 and TNP4) with the reduced cost of £2,100. The new TNP’s would then match to the new AS record. The downside of this is that there is additional work for the employer and provider to do this. Non levy employers would have to use another reservation to do this as the change of employer functionality cannot be used as it does not allow a change of employer back to the same employer. Option 2 The second option would be to let the DLOCK_07 price mismatch trigger against that first employer record with the cost of £2,500. This could be triaged and passed to the employer to approve the cost reduction from £2,500 to £2,100. Although this isn’t strictly true and may look a bit wrong and appear the wrong thing to do – behind the scenes the cost on the employer’s apprenticeship service record is only there to ensure that the cost the provider is claiming in their ILR matches what the employer has agreed to. The cost on the employer’s record doesn’t service any other purpose. All of the providers earnings and therefore payments are driven from the ILR. Option 3 The third option which would only work if the provider were claiming the funding band maximum but would mean less work for the employer and provider in terms of creating new AS records or approving price changes etc would be to ignore those £400 earnings from May to September and record the following TNP records for September. TNP3 Date : 18th September 2023 Price : £2,100 TNP4 Date : 18th September 2023 Price : £400 So, they’re adjusting the EPA from £500 to £400 as they need to, but they’re effectively saying the price remaining in September 2023 (£2,500) is the same as the price that was remaining back in May 2023 (£2,500). We know this is wrong as there are £400 of earnings between those dates - but as the September £2,500 still matches to the employers record it does avoid the DLOCK_07 issue. The indicative earnings report would inform them that they are attempting to claim £400 over the funding band maximum and they would only be able to earn the £2,100. As you can see – not ideal and not one straight forward answer to this problem.

1. Updating EPA Price

Hi Desiree This was the reply I received and they were unable to give me a definite answer and did not reply to my further email regarding not updating the EPA price in the ILR and DAS but ensuring...

Tracey Widdows commented, 15 November 2023 12:18

Hi This is in direct conflict from the ESFA webinar they carried out this year on the new funding rules where they stated a new apprenticeship agreement MUST be signed if the existing one goes out of date due to the learner going out of funding, this was further back up by their Q and A they sent out after the meeting,  please see text below directly from the Q and A.  This also brings into question if we should then obtain a new Training Plan and Employer Written Agreement as the due end dates will not match.   [image]

1. Apprenticeship agreement

Hi This is in direct conflict from the ESFA webinar they carried out this year on the new funding rules where they stated a new apprenticeship agreement MUST be signed if the existing one goes out ...

Tracey Widdows commented, 10 November 2023 11:37

Hi Clair I have had ongoing conversation with the ESFA and the latest reply last week was that there is no definitive answer, they gave 3 options that we could do but each option came with different problems and not one option was the correct answer.  I have sent a reply asking that as the ESFA can not give us a definitive answer on how to update the ILR in this scenario then am I within my rights not to update the TNP 3 and 4 as this will not result in an overclaim.  I await a reply. Thanks Tracey

1. Updating EPA Price

Hi Clair I have had ongoing conversation with the ESFA and the latest reply last week was that there is no definitive answer, they gave 3 options that we could do but each option came with differen...

Tracey Widdows commented, 16 May 2022 10:17

But what if you have not charged the maximum price band to start with, you don't just go over the band it is then an overclaim as the system will automatically pay you up to the maximum band.  Also what employer is then going to pay the EPA price increase when you have already negotiated a price 3 years previous at the start of the apprenticeship.  Some of the employers are not paying anything if they are 16-18 SME and then we are supposed to turn around and say sorry you have to pay the EPA price increase because if you do not then we do not get paid the 20% achievement payment, what employer in their right mind would pay that? If the employer changes the price then doesn't this change the price from the start of the record as the AS system does not allow you to add a second price and date for the same employer, so then it will still data lock as we can't change the price to match on our system from the original change date if we have gone into a different contract year?

1. Updating EPA Price

But what if you have not charged the maximum price band to start with, you don't just go over the band it is then an overclaim as the system will automatically pay you up to the maximum band.  Also...

Tracey Widdows commented, 16 May 2022 09:59

Hi Steve You can't add a TNP1 and TNP2 after your have entered a TNP3 and TNP4 the system does not allow it, the ESFA have confirmed it is TNP3 and TNP4 to update the EPA price if the learner has previously changed employers but it results in a datalock or an overclaim.

1. Updating EPA Price

Hi Steve You can't add a TNP1 and TNP2 after your have entered a TNP3 and TNP4 the system does not allow it, the ESFA have confirmed it is TNP3 and TNP4 to update the EPA price if the learner has p...

Tracey Widdows commented, 16 May 2022 09:43

Hi Martin Thank you for your quick reply, that is correct and what we have been recording.  The problem happens when we then go into another contract year and the EPA price changes when the learner goes to sit their EPA.  Example below, Same scenario as above the learner then sits EPA on the 23/11/20 and the EPA price has increased to £600. TNP   3      23/11/20     1900 TNP   4      23/11/20      600 This will result in an overclaim and going over the funding band maximum If we reduce the TNP3 and TNP4 to take into account the funding we have received from Nov 19 to Nov 20 and enter this new reduced negotiated price then this will result in a datalock error?

1. Updating EPA Price

Hi Martin Thank you for your quick reply, that is correct and what we have been recording.  The problem happens when we then go into another contract year and the EPA price changes when the learner...

Tracey Widdows commented, 24 March 2022 15:03

Thanks Steve, I can't see anywhere in the funding rules to state this.  It states that you have to show the negotiated EPA price with the employer and if it is above the funding band they are liable for the extra, but I can't find any mention that they should also pay any increases the EPAO imposes after the EPA price has been agreed and that it should state this in the contract?

1. Change in EPA pricing

Thanks Steve, I can't see anywhere in the funding rules to state this.  It states that you have to show the negotiated EPA price with the employer and if it is above the funding band they are liabl...

Tracey Widdows commented, 24 March 2022 14:09

Hi We have the opposite problem, our EPA prices have increased and we are already on the maximum funding band for that qualification so what happens then? I change the TNP2 price but I am now showing over the funding band maximum, ESFA rules state  that the employer has to pay any amount over the funding band, not really fair to go back to the employer and tell them they now have to pay more because the EPA has increased their prices?

1. Change in EPA pricing

Hi We have the opposite problem, our EPA prices have increased and we are already on the maximum funding band for that qualification so what happens then? I change the TNP2 price but I am now showi...

Tracey Widdows commented, 01 February 2021 12:52

Thanks Martin, was hoping we would get some clarification of who the ESFA are paying so that we could remind employers to apply for the payment if they haven't been paid because as you know with the best will in the world there are going to be employers who forget to claim the incentive.

1. Employer Incentive payment from DAS

Thanks Martin, was hoping we would get some clarification of who the ESFA are paying so that we could remind employers to apply for the payment if they haven't been paid because as you know with th...

Tracey Widdows commented, 01 February 2021 11:07

Thanks Martin, this just informs us when the payment should be paid but we know that the ESFA did not make payments initially even though the attached states 90 days from the learner start date, the ESFA were delaying all payments until January.  I have not heard of any of my employers being paid this month and I have received no correspondence from the ESFA to check eligibly of any learners so just want to know if any other providers' employers have received their first payment and how did the ESFA check eligibility with the provider.

1. Employer Incentive payment from DAS

Thanks Martin, this just informs us when the payment should be paid but we know that the ESFA did not make payments initially even though the attached states 90 days from the learner start date, th...