Apprentice Passed PED

You’d need to revise your existing agreement and get it re-signed, yes. The planned end date should be updated to reflect how much longer the learner has until they complete. You’d use the same judgement in setting this date that you used in the first instance.

Ben James so not complete a new one, just add new dates?  Would auditors accept that?

Would seem 'silly' to create a new one entirely (though not 'wrong'), so just updating the existing one, per:

P262 If any circumstances change that affect any agreement made between you and the employer, you must revise existing agreements or create new agreements. This includes but is not limited to:

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P262.6 Changes to the apprenticeship duration;

You'd need to get the revision re-signed though:

P31.1 The signed apprenticeship agreement must be distributed to both signatories (employer and apprentice), and you must obtain a copy of this for the evidence pack, along with any revisions. 

Signature section also states:

P358 Where an electronic or digital signature is being held, from any party for any reason, you must ensure it is non-refutable. Systems and processes must be in place to assure to us that the original signature has not been altered. Where any document needs to be renewed and a new signature taken, it must be clear from when the new document takes effect and both must be held.  

EDIT: Obviously 'revising' agreements depends on what solution (software, or otherwise) you use. So how you apply these rules may differ.

Thank you, I just like things to be tidy haha. 

Very much agree. I suppose 'revised' and 'new' agreements are more of a semantic distinction in this (and other) case. You're essentially going to be adding new dates and getting it re-signed, so it's 'new' in the sense that whilst the original document is in place, you're going to be getting a whole new version signed.. unless you literally want to cross things out and squeeze new signatures onto the same bit of paper, but that would definitely not fall into the 'tidy' category. 

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I have also been wondering just how far over the PED learners would need to be for this to kick in. Rules don't give any guidance, so I'd assume even a day?

EDIT - actually a more important question is around WHICH date is the key one. Is it practical period or the entire apprenticeship? 

The wording is this:

54 We have clarified that the apprenticeship agreement must cover the actual
duration of the apprenticeship (e.g. if the apprenticeship is extended, the
apprenticeship agreement must also be extended).

Yes, 1 day past the PED would require a revision as the existing agreement ceased to be valid the day prior

54. Unless the apprentice is on an alternative English apprenticeship, the provider must have evidence that the apprentice has an apprenticeship agreement with their employer, from the start of and for the actual duration of their apprenticeship.

You're right that it isn't explicitly stated, but my assumption is it is the end date of the apprenticeship that is the operative date. The above rule refers to the need for an agreement to be in place specifically for the duration of the apprenticeship, not the practical period. Interpretations may vary, of course. 

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This was my interpretation too.

Mentioning PED got me a little unsure, as in my mind I link that to the ILR PED, when of course it applies to both.

Thank you so much.

Hi, would an apprentice only need a revised version if the AED date is after the PED or do you go by the achievement date too?

Thanks :)

I don't think it really matters? If the planned end date has been exceeded, a revision to the apprenticeship agreement is required because at that stage the below is no longer the case

P29 You must have evidence that the apprentice has an apprenticeship agreement with their employer, at the start of and for the duration of their apprenticeship.

I'd suggest not waiting until the PED has been exceeded before revising it. You'd want to be doing this ahead of time so the agreement doesn't 'lapse', and extending it according to when you/the apprentice/the employer feel they're going to fully complete.

I'm in the process of checking learners passed their PED to ensure the agreement covers them, but come across a couple where they have exceeded their end date substantially but new/amended agreements haven't been put in place.  If I do these now they obviously are being signed long after when they should be effectvie from - what would you do in this scenario?

Thanks

Better they're in place now than not at all. The ESFA also suggested recently that whilst they would prefer it not be the norm and that it does make things messy, they were accepting of the agreement sometimes being signed after the fact, on the basis that it clearly states when the agreement is effective from/to. It's backdating of signatures they don't allow.