EPA and completion payments

Unfortunately, you can't release the completion payment unless you commit to recording it as a pass or fail.

I think I've heard that some providers record a fail immediately, and later "update" to a pass if a retake happens. That would be a problem if the first attempt was in one academic year, and the resit was in the following year. We don't do that, we just leave as 1/8 with an Actual End Date until the apprentice has resat, and we have to wait for the completion payment. If a student first attempted in 24/25, planned to resit, we went past close of R14 and they decided not to resit after all, we'd just lose the completion element permanently 🙁

Hi Ruth,

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge / thoughts. 

Losing the completion element seems really unfair. Im surprised they don't look at the systems to help providers with these issues. I understand why providers would record the 'fail' with the high numbers going though and cost implications associated. As said, with the amount that some must be going through the cost must be immense, so clawing that back is really important. 

I would have expected a change to EPA data to be open to no matter what the year on ILR. 

I did ask Helpdesk and this is what they said: 

This is what you need to record for each learner who is going to retake their EPA

Completion Status = 2 (Learning complete)

Outcome = 3 (No achievement)

Learning Actual End Date = EPA Gateway date

You should not use Completion Status = 1 (learner is continuing or intending to continue ……)  as they have completed - albeit failed the first attempt of the EPA.

Once they (hopefully) pass you then set 

Outcome to 1 (Achieved) 

Achievement Date  = the date of the successful retake.

So my thoughts on this are, we do record the attempt regardless.

The retake is the responsibility of the employer and Apprentice. The EPAO has to make a return to the DFE to confirm the apprentice has failed first attempt and pass 2nd attempt right? so, if this is the case this would be matched via the ULN's so it would be irrelevant as long as the data is updated on the ILR for return the month of Outcome 1 'achieved'??

Thoughts?

Eamon 

Loads of providers don't follow that advice (which is not published), and leave the record open until the resit (rightly or wrongly). 

I'm no QAR expert, so what I don't actually know is what happens if you report an apprenticeship fail in one year, then report the same apprenticeship again in the following year with an achievement. Can it be counted twice? It's definitely going to count as a fail in the earlier year. Does that get retrospectively changed if you report an achievement in the following year? Is there a deadline for that?

Morning Ruth,

Thanks. 

That's the questions that need answering really. Doe's anyone else know please?

I went through a HUGE back and forth with the Apprenticeship team about this years ago and the end result was "leave them at 1&8 until they've stopped doing retakes" (which I didn't agree with, but there you go...). Particularly galling if they've got to gateway before their PED as you've got the balancing payment locked up as well...

In terms of the QAR, I'm fairly sure that once they're a fail, they're a fail and the following year's ILR won't "update" the previous year's one...

Steve Hewitt So that result issue is a good reason to leave them at 1/8 if the latest failed attempt was June/July! You just take the risk on them not resitting after all, and losing all the completion element and still getting a fail (just pushed into the next year). I make the curriculum team make that decision, and give them the choice of recording the fail now and securing the funding, or waiting and hoping for a pass in the next year but risking funding.

So we've collectively had completely contradictory info from Apprentice Service, and nether is published guidance. No wonder providers do it differently.

I mean, most of my discussion was about trying to get clarity on what they meant by "completed". In my head, I was using the same definition we use for classroom, so, eg, we'd set a learner to complete even if they subsequently needed to resit and, as long as that was sorted by R14, we were all good (which, I'd argue, is the ILR Spec definition of "completed" as well)...

The person replying though had a different definition in their head which was "only when they've stopped doing everything (including resits)"...

Steve Hewitt I've been asking for better definitions of "Completed" from DfE because of the ASF changes from achievement to completion payments. The difference between a fail (completion) and a withdrawal are entirely unclear. Some providers will lose out by interpreting it one way and recording a withdrawal, auditors may be stricter and try and clawback because they believe a fail was actually a withdrawal. Now funding is impacted by teh distinction, they really need to be clearer about what a Completion is.

Hi Ruth, Steve.

Thanks for the replies. I went to the Help desk again to clarifi the response FYI.

This is my question:

This is how im following: 

Where a learner ‘fails’ in 2024-2025 year end but is retaking we should record:

Completion Status = 2 (Learning complete)

Outcome = 3 (No achievement)

Learning Actual End Date = EPA Gateway date

Then, in year 2025-2026 year return, whether that be RO 1,2,3,4 etc, we should then record as:

Outcome to 1 (Achieved) 

Achievement Date = the date of the successful retake.

Can you confirm this is correct please? Im conscious of the hard close of R14 coming up soon and then not being able to change the Outcome and Achievement date in 2025 – 2026 returns because its ‘closed’.

 And here is the response:

I read through both my response and yours and we are on the same page.

Old Academic Year R12, R13 etc

Completion Status = 2 (Learning complete); Outcome = 3 (No achievement); Learning Actual End Date = EPA Gateway date
 

New Academic Year R01, R02 etc

Outcome to 1 (Achieved) 
Achievement Date = the date of the successful retake.
 

I used the word pass instead of achieved which may have caused the confusion.

So i believe this confirms that it does carry forward to the new ILR generated. 

Eamon 

Yes, you'd definitely carry it forward if you recorded them as a fail in 24/25 but fully expected them to resit in 25/26. If they didn't then resit, I'd delete from 25/26. The issue is what Steve had said about you still having a fail in your stats, despite a later achievement. If you left the record at 1/8 in R14, you'd avoid that (assuming they did go on to pass).

What's the percentage before the red flag gets raised?

Having a 'fail' is what it is -  if they don't take again we withdraw, which Im sure will raise the percentage on 'withdrawals' too although they've completed on programme and attempted?

Funny old 'game' all this......  

Ah, no, if they don't take again, but have done all the elements then they're completed and failed, not withdrawn. You only withdraw people who've got to Gateway if they don't *take* all the elements of the EPA.

True Steve. Getting my wires crossed.