Change of employer on code 2:8

Um, you can't have learners at 2&8? By definition, 8 means "result not yet known", so how can you put the achievement date in if you don't know the (final) result? Honestly thought it was an Validation Rule error these days, but seemingly not...

As Steve has said, 2/8 is not valid with apprenticeship programme aims. If they already sat EPA and you recorded an Achievement Date and set it to a fail, then you've had all the money and why would you need TNP3 and 4? They would be zero. If you haven't recorded as achievement date and a fail, then you won't have had the completion element, but why should the new employer for responsible for the completion payment when the student already sat the EPA with the first employer?

I just don't think we'd record this as a change of employer. We'd just go ahead and record as a fail, get the funding, and if there is a resit, just charge the new employer separately for that. If they won't pay, then you can either pay for the resit as the provider or not allow it.

Hi

Just to clarify, the standard has 3 elements in EPA , the programme aim is are coded 2:8 when all 3 elements have been sat awaiting outcome in order to release completion payment , but then require a resit in one area. They are not fails at this stage, it is in this stage that the learner in question has now changed employer - this employer is willing to support the learner to achievement. 

Do you record the change of employer at this stage in the ILR but no TNP 3 and 4 .

My concern is when the achievement is finally recorded to 2:1 , this learner is with the new employer, but DAS is still in completion with the 1st employer so the completion certs will go to the previous employer.

The Funding rules state you can do a change of employer at completion but not achievement stage

120. 120. The apprentice must be employed until the end-point assessment is completed. Consideration must be given to the potential time needed for any re-sit and / or re-training prior to re-taking the end-point assessment so the apprentice remains employed during this time.

120.1. The only exception is where the apprentice has been made redundant and we are funding the apprenticeship to completion. In this case, any main provider responsible for the completion of the training can act as a proxy employer for the purposes of providing any required employer competency statement. This does not mean the main provider records themselves as the employer in the ILR. 

120.2. Where an apprentice has changed employer after they have completed all the training and reached gateway, including where the new job role is not related to the apprenticeship, the apprentice may complete the end-point assessment in agreement with the end-point assessment organisation and the provider, so long as the end-point assessment can be successfully delivered and funded.

120.2.1 Providers must contact apprenticeship service support to get approval to report this change to us and to receive the technical details for claiming the completion payment.

thanks for feedback so far

There are no circumstances in which an apprenticeship ZPROG001 should be coded 2/8. It's 1/8 (plus actual end date) once they're at gateway, then you only change to Completed (plus known outcome and Achievement Date) once they have attempted all components of the EPA. If there are three parts to the EPA, and they only attempt one, then you are not allowed to record it as a Completion, and you do not earn the completion element (it's a withdrawal if they never attempt the remaining parts). This bit says to record as 1/8 until end of "EPA period", but isn't clear that this means every part. The main Apps guidance clarifies that saying:

161. We will pay the remaining balance (the completion payment) of the total negotiated price, up to the funding band maximum, to the provider when the apprentice has undertaken all the activity relevant to the apprenticeship, including completing all elements of the end-point assessment; and where applicable, the employer co-investment has been collected and recorded on the ILR (see paragraph 163). 

Entering the achievement date and completion triggers the payment, so that means you mustn't enter the achievement date and completion until all components have been attempted. If you already recorded this as a completion in error, when they haven't sat all EPA parts, and that has now pushed through to close the DAS cohort, I don't know if there's anything you can do. The Apprenticeship Service may have some ideas, or you may just not be able to do anything about it. You should change back to 1/8 and remove the achievement date for now anyway, and that will claw back the completion payment for now until the apprentice has sat all parts, and you put them back (with a new Achievement Date).

Also, if you have a change of employer after gateway but before completion, you can normally do that and you can add TNP3/4 as appropriate up to the completion amount, new DAS cohort etc. That might not now be possible if you already closed the DAS record as completed by reporting it that way in the ILR.

I had about a six month back and forth with AS about what "completed" meant four or five years ago now and the upshot of it was when they said "completed" they meant "has done all the resits and is definitely stopping now" even though this isn't really written down anywhere explicitly and is not the same as how we define completion for classroom learners, so I can understand the confusion. As I say, I genuinely thought they'd made 2&8 a validation error on FM 36 ZPROGs to stop people doing this.

I agree with Ruth though, you've done it "wrong".

thank you both so much for your input into this. i am going to take this away and address it with our team and internal process. Ill raise with the helpdesk now for support. 

Steve, FYI - this does not come up as a validation error anywhere, therefore up until a COE whilst in this position, we have not found any issues coding this way and been through external audits. 

It really is a problem that this isn't a validation error. Couple that with the guidance not being clear and it's bound to happen. They need to stop saying things like "learner reaches the end of the end point assessment period" or the ILR spec definition of Achievement Date as "conclusion of the End Point assessment period", and just explicitly say "when the learner has attempted all parts of the End Point assessment". You can only determine that by cross referencing multiple parts of the guidance. I do love a treasure hunt and a logic puzzle, but it's not an ideal format for funding guidance.

Steve Hewitt That issue of apprentices who have attempted the whole EPA but are still planning to resit, and whether to code as 1/8 or 2/3 (and change Outcome later if they do pass), is still contentious. Other providers have had a different answer. It also matters what time of year you're at! If they attempted in July, failed, and plan to resit but haven't done so by R14, you need honest conversations about whether a resit is still likely. If you leave it open then they don't resit after all, you've lost your entire completion payment that you could have had, because you end up putting an Achievement Date from a closed year, only into the following year, and you don't get paid for that. On the other hand, you can fail them and get the funding, but if they then do resit, that won't change the fail you reported last year.

Ruth Canham-James.  I think the definition should be clearer for actual end date of ZPROG001 in the context of Apprenticeship and confirm that it is the 'end of practical period' allowing all subsequent definitions of the time up to to the achieved end date to reach your definition.  Much cleaner.

Paul Rogers I think the best explanation I've seen for Apprenticeship Actual End Date is this from the glossary of the apprenticeship rules.

Final day

Defined in legislation as the final day of the practical period. This is the equivalent of the learning end date on the ILR (there must be evidence of learning on this learning end date) and internally it is also referred to as the “gateway” between the practical period and the completion of the end-point assessment. The term ‘final day’ is used as a measure in the redundancy policy to determine if the apprentice will be fully funded to completion. 

The only possible date they could mean in the ILR is the Actual End Date (it would be nice if they would use the accurate terminology), so to me this confirms that AED is the date of last evidenced learning. Glossary also says "Learning Actual End Date - This can include off-the-job training and English and maths". That's weird, because we know a break has to be applied where there is no OTJT active learning when there's a gap, even if there was E&M delivery, which doesn't sit right with that AED definition.