Ben James
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Ben James commented,
Does this help Annabel Redshaw? Confirm my apprenticeship details – Apprenticeship Service Support (education.gov.uk)
Does this help Annabel Redshaw? Confirm my apprenticeship details – Apprenticeship Service Support (education.gov.uk)
Ben James commented,
Just as a follow-up - I got this back from the Service Desk which echoes what you were saying about resits not really being in any of the guidance to any useful degree; Hi Ben, Please record the completion along with the outcome failed when a learner does not achieve on their original End Point Assessment. If they achieve on a resit only then the outcome will remain the same for now whilst investigation is ongoing. Kind regards ESFA Customer Service
Just as a follow-up - I got this back from the Service Desk which echoes what you were saying about resits not really being in any of the guidance to any useful degree; Hi Ben, Please record the co...
Ben James commented,
Appreciate that, and often I'll defer to your judgement. Just wish it was a bit more explicit in the PSM!
Appreciate that, and often I'll defer to your judgement. Just wish it was a bit more explicit in the PSM!
Ben James commented,
So would you say that rather than just reporting the data 'as it happens' (i.e. recording an EPA failure as a failure the instant they fail, regardless of an intention to resit) providers should probably formalise asking the apprentice if they intend to resit.. and if they do, don't update the completion status/achievement date until they've either re-sat and passed, or chosen not to resit anymore.. at which point you would update the fields accordingly?
So would you say that rather than just reporting the data 'as it happens' (i.e. recording an EPA failure as a failure the instant they fail, regardless of an intention to resit) providers should pr...
Ben James commented,
Hmmm.. but the PSM states; In order to be recorded as ‘Completed’ (Completion status code 2), both the training and end point assessment activities for the programme must be completed. An end point assessment that has resulted in a failed outcome can be classed as complete as long as the learner reaches the end of the end point assessment period, rather than withdrawing. Learners who take the EPA and fail, regardless of their intention to resit, have reached the end of the EPA period. Electing to resit doesn't change the fact they've taken, and failed, an EPA.. so surely we should record this failure, along with appropriate dates, and then if the EPA is retaken, update the Outcome accordingly? Feedback from the Service Desk suggested that; "If a learner fails EPA and achieves on resit only, then the outcome only can be amended to show that they have now achieved. No other fields are to be amended and a new aim is not required."
Hmmm.. but the PSM states; In order to be recorded as ‘Completed’ (Completion status code 2), both the training and end point assessment activities for the programme must be completed. An end point...
Ben James commented,
Appreciated, as always! The only issue I've got is I'd argue the learner did complete the EPA period by it's definition, they took it and failed - their electing to resit doesn't retrospectively re-open the same EPA period, surely, as not all apprentices will resit? It's just an added 'period' on top, even where (in this case) no new learning is required. I've read this thread many times, where the consensus towards the end was that you'd just update the Outcome once the resit result is known.. I was just a bit curious as to whether amending the Outcome after hard close would have any impact or not.
Appreciated, as always! The only issue I've got is I'd argue the learner did complete the EPA period by it's definition, they took it and failed - their electing to resit doesn't retrospectively re...
Ben James commented,
Effectively, yes. The residual cost should reflect the cost of the remaining amount of the programme to be delivered with the new employer, i.e. if 50% of the training/programme had been delivered with Employer 1, the residual cost should reflect the remaining 50% of the training/programme to be delivered with Employer 2.
Effectively, yes. The residual cost should reflect the cost of the remaining amount of the programme to be delivered with the new employer, i.e. if 50% of the training/programme had been delivered ...
Ben James commented,
Thanks Ruth Canham-James! Appreciate the response.
Thanks Ruth Canham-James! Appreciate the response.
Ben James commented,
You'd need to factor the requirement for, or lack thereof, any additional learning into your negotiations with the employer when determining the price as this would be considered an eligible cost (P105.2). It would be reasonable to assume that an employer would not want to incur the cost for the repetition of modules already achieved (despite perhaps the re-achievement of those modules being a requirement for the completion of the re-taken year) but it would also be reasonable to assume there'd be additional training required on those that were not. What financial value you ascribe to these failed modules, and therefore what cost you renegotiate, is your prerogative - you just have to be able to evidence that you've accounted for this, and any prior learning, in your negotiations.
You'd need to factor the requirement for, or lack thereof, any additional learning into your negotiations with the employer when determining the price as this would be considered an eligible cost (...
Ben James commented,
As long as both parties agree there's no reason why you couldn't. Yes, the below states these are actions where the employer negotiates a revised cost, but the principle is the same; Actions to take when there is a change in price where the employer negotiates a revised training or assessment cost, or the assessment cost is added after the start of the programme; P336 Both the employer and main provider must: P336.1 Agree a new price. P336.2 Confirm the new price on the apprenticeship service. If funded by a transfer, both the sending and receiving employers will need to agree the new apprenticeship in the apprenticeship service. P336.3 Revise written agreements and / or the commitment statement as required. P337 The main provider must update the price on the ILR.
As long as both parties agree there's no reason why you couldn't. Yes, the below states these are actions where the employer negotiates a revised cost, but the principle is the same; Actions to tak...