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Um, are all of the "them" the help desk because, um, there is some serious knowledge gaps there...
Since ~2019, this has been the way to record a Apprentice at various points:
On programme:
Completion 1
Outcome [blank]
ActEndDate [blank]
Achdate [blank]
Once the learner reaches Gateway:
Completion 1
Outcome 8
ActEndDate [last day in learning on/before the Gateway paperwork is signed]
AchDate [blank]
When a learner has fully completed their EPA including any resits:
Completion 2
Outcome 1 (if achieved), 3 (if failed)
ActEndDate [last day in learning on/before the Gateway paperwork is signed]
AchDate [date of the last element of their EPA]
Now, there's been a bit of brouhaha vis a vis how the Apprenticeship Accountability Framework is *currently* set up as it's *currently* including anyone 1&8 where ActEndDate is after Planned End Date as well as those still continuing past their planned end date but we're expecting this to be updated, maybe as soon as the R06 data (don't hold your breath)...
Yes, the “them” does mean the helpdesk. They also tend not to answer the question asked until about the third/forth iteration.
I did look in the Provider Support and did not find anything as clear as you are stating. I will give this a go this morning and see what errors, if any, are created.
Thank you
Nothing of huge significance to add to this as Steve has, as always, provided a comprehensive response. I also concur that the PSM could definitely do with being clearer.. however, as you yourself have mentioned, it does, and has for quite some time now, state:
In order to be recorded as ‘Completed’ (Completion status code 2), both the training and end point assessment activities for the programme must be completed. An end point assessment that has resulted in a failed outcome can be classed as complete as long as the learner reaches the end of the end point assessment period, rather than withdrawing. If either of these have not been completed, then the programme aim cannot be recorded with Completion status code 2.
Reaching/passing Gateway ≠ completed.
I mean this "Like you I was very baffled by this, as I've always understood that when apprentices enters gateway its a) 2- completed and b) 8 - awaiting outcome." is *shocking* not least because this reads like someone who is not a complete newbie...
Also, as it's genuinely the thing I get wrong most often (up to and including a fortnight ago!!!), we don't put the ACT To date in until we're complete, it remains blank at Gateway.
Our MI system (ProSolution) doesn't seem to let staff request Completion of 1/8, so we let them request those as 2/8, and we have a script that runs regularly to turn all 2/8 apprenticeships with no Achievement date, back to Continuing. I set that up as soon as that rule came out as it saved us the bother of remembering!
Well that's sub-optimal. you think they'd make it so that it worked properly...
Also, per thread here:
All Gateways now excluded from AAF PPED count.
Morning
Can I ask what you select if it is an integrated EPA? So they are passed the learning planned end date and should be Completion 1 and Outcome 8 under normal circumstances but there is a credit bearing module as part of the gateway which in effect means they cannot achieve the degree until the EPA is complete.
Thankfully this is a course that is about to finish but your thoughts would be appreciated.
I have always left them as continuing until the EPA has been assessed and accepted that they will appear as beyond planned end date.
So if we do the process below will it be taken out of the new "Apprentices past planned end date (APPED)" indicator in the Apprenticeship training provider accountability framework?
Once the learner reaches Gateway:
Completion 1
Outcome 8
ActEndDate [last day in learning on/before the Gateway paperwork is signed]
AchDate [blank]
Gill Knight Yes gateway will occur before the EPA/final credits/degree completion. In some integrated standards this is explicit, with the training requirement for gateway "completed 320 credits". This has implications for the planned training end date on the Training Plan and Apprenticeship Agreement, and ILR, and planned OTJ hours (since study time on the final module doesn't count as it's after gateway).
Peter Keating in a word, yes.
Paul Corker
Apprenticeship Framework - Beyond Planned End Dates Risk Issues
Created
It has come to my attention that most learners will be beyond planed due to an ILR rule violation that means apprentices have to be left as continuing when they move into EPA. If you set them to Completed/Outcome not know a rule vioaltion is triggered stating you msut enter the Achievement Date something you do not know at this point as they have just entered into EPA. Does anyone know of a solution.
I have approached the Customer Help Portal, see thead below: -
Me -> Them
I have been researching how to mark actual end date for apprenticeships when the practical training period end and the learner goes into EPA. The provider support manual say to set Completion = 2, Outcome = 8 and enter the actual end date.
When I do this FIS gives me rule violations please use the attched files to investigate and do not upload anything to SLD.
I do not think there should be a rule violations. This is causing us to have lots of learner showing as beyond planned end date as we cannot put one in without causing a rule violation. or three.
Them -> Me
Like you I was very baffled by this, as I've always understood that when apprentices enters gateway its a) 2- completed and b) 8 - awaiting outcome.
I referred this to the ILR team and followed their guidance a) = 1 continuing (ZPROG only) and after also removing the ACT TO date of 18/12/2025) all the errors / warnings went.
Here is what he said verbatim "Where the training is completed and the learner is in Gateway, the completion should be - Compstat 1, Outcome 8, Actual end date complete"
"Compstat 2 is to be used when the Achievement date is also completed - the error due is a long standing situation that validation did not account for (but guidance did), that has now been resolved."
Me -> Them
We have been setting Completion = 1, Outcome = null, Actual End Date = null. This gets rid of all rule violations but makes it look like all enrolments go beyond planned end date and then identifies us as a risk accoring to the apprenticeship framework where mor than 15% are in the frame.
Them -> Me
I had another look at the guidance: Recording apprenticeship standard completions
and it mentions Outcome = 8 (learning complete but outcome not yet known):
“When the training period for the apprenticeship standard is complete, but the EPA period is incomplete, the Outcome must be recorded as code 8 ‘Learning activities are complete but the outcome is not yet known’. Where the Outcome is recorded as code ‘8’, the learning actual end date must also recorded, as all learning activities have taken place.”
It goes on to other things and then eventually says - at the bottom - to only set to the learner to Completed once training and EPA are complete:
“In order to be recorded as ‘Completed’ (Completion status code 2), both the training and end point assessment activities for the programme must be completed.“
So whilst it doesn’t explicitly say to use Continuing, I guess it’s taken for granted, as that would be the “natural state” of the record for Apprentices who started their programme and hadn’t done anything out of the ordinary - withdrawn, break in learning, changed programme etc
Me -> Them
This is where we have been for years but now we are being taken to task for learners going beyond planned end date, which they are not but the rule violation forces into this situation.
Is there any way you can escalate to policy maker as this surely is not correct.