Ruth Canham-James
Working in College MIS since July 2009.
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Ruth Canham-James commented,
Whilst Martin is absolutely right, you would lose your remaining on programme payments if they complete early but then don't sit the EPA, I did raise this with the Apprenticeship Service as being really unfair. They gave me specific permission for the apprentice in question, to record the Actual End Date as the Planned End Date (instead of the true Actual End Date), enabling us to claim all our on programme payments. I was instructed to keep the email as evidence if audited. If this happens, it's worth a try asking them for the same. Their specific statement to me was "As you have confirmed that the apprentice has completed all their learning, the Specialist team have agreed in this instance that you can record the withdrawn date as the planned end to allow the balancing payments to be released", but it was just for this one ULN.
Whilst Martin is absolutely right, you would lose your remaining on programme payments if they complete early but then don't sit the EPA, I did raise this with the Apprenticeship Service as being r...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
It depends what guidance you're looking for, some of it is still in PDF (16-19 and Apprentices). ESFA have stopped making PDF versions of some of the guidance, as it's "not accessible". Technically yes, where you're using software to access these documents, they're more accessible as web pages, so that did need doing. If you don't need any assistance with accessing the documents, the web pages are often worse. We've asked a number of times for ESFA to provide both solutions, but that is quite a bit more work for them, and they have so far decided not to produce both. Personally, I don't mind as long as the guidance is in one continuous web page, such as the AEB guidance. I can Ctrl+F, and you can print the web pages if you want, and they don't look too awful. You can "print" using cutepdf (free download), to turn it into a pdf that you can then annotate. The one that is really horrible is the Provider Support Manual, which is multiple web pages, and the search function that supposedly searches the whole document, doesn't work at all. That one makes that part of my job ten times harder.
It depends what guidance you're looking for, some of it is still in PDF (16-19 and Apprentices). ESFA have stopped making PDF versions of some of the guidance, as it's "not accessible". Technically...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
I agree with Simon, we've had a couple like this. As long as the original paperwork was signed before the apprenticeship as whole starts, I think there's usually leniency on the new employer paperwork. I can't be certain every auditor would agree though. I will say, It's comforting we're not the only ones. I work so hard on impressing the vital importance of assessors (and anyone else) informing us when there's even a hint that an apprentice is leaving/changing employers, yet we still get notified late sometimes. Some of our apprentices just change employer and neither they, nor their old employer, nor the new one, think to tell the college. If they're still showing up to college based classes, and are logging OTJ, and perhaps an assessor visit has been unavoidably delayed, it can go under the radar for a while. I've seen it where the new small employer has agreed to the apprentice continuing it with them, and are releasing them for classes and OTJ, but since they'd never had an apprentice before, they didn't know they actually needed to speak to us.
I agree with Simon, we've had a couple like this. As long as the original paperwork was signed before the apprenticeship as whole starts, I think there's usually leniency on the new employer paperw...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
You definitely can keep someone on programme when they're not technically working. We had several during the big lockdowns. They couldn't technically go to work, but were still being paid, and continued with delivery/learning that met the 20%, and they logged it all. We also had vice versa, apprentices who were working through lockdown, but became too busy to keep up with 20% OTJ, so went on a BIL whilst still actually working. They restarted when things at work calmed down.
You definitely can keep someone on programme when they're not technically working. We had several during the big lockdowns. They couldn't technically go to work, but were still being paid, and cont...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
The employer needs to change the stop date back to match the start date, then set up a whole new DAS record from scratch, identical to the original one. I'm not sure how that works with a reservation though! I'd contact the Apprenticeship Service for advice if they're non-levy. It's ridiculous that the Apprentice Service don't have the power to undo an accidental stop when it's the employer requesting the change. I understand that they couldn't allow a provider to do that.
The employer needs to change the stop date back to match the start date, then set up a whole new DAS record from scratch, identical to the original one. I'm not sure how that works with a reservati...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
You wouldn't lose any funding overall. If you keep the same Planned End Date, you'll just get the same divided by fewer months. Remember though, that if your ILR start date is Jan 2021, all OTJ they did before that date is inadmissible to meet the 20% requirement, because they weren't technically an apprentice before that date. Also, make sure you haven't dropped below 12 months duration with the start date change. You're basically stating that the apprentice didn't really start until January, so all your paperwork, learning agreements etc need to say Jan 2021 start. I assume this was non-levy and a reservation? Levy payers can back date their DAS records no problem. This is why you need to be really careful reservations are done in time. We had an employer who didn't do a reservation in time, then didn't want to extend the employment contract of the apprentices to cover the 12 months required from the DAS start date. We had to insist, or they couldn't be apprentices.
You wouldn't lose any funding overall. If you keep the same Planned End Date, you'll just get the same divided by fewer months. Remember though, that if your ILR start date is Jan 2021, all OTJ the...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
That's good to know Chloe Hemmingsley! We've not had much help from them in this scenario. I think the times we had this issue, we did eventually get the employer to sort it before it got that far.
That's good to know Chloe Hemmingsley! We've not had much help from them in this scenario. I think the times we had this issue, we did eventually get the employer to sort it before it got that far.
Ruth Canham-James commented,
Jess Reading Yes, it does seem odd that someone who attends week 1 and is off sick for weeks 2 and 3 is fine to keep all their hours and normal dates, but someone who is off sick weeks 1 and 2 should have to have the dates changes and hours reduced, but that is the rules. Steve Hewitt Nice in theory, but I've never met an auditor that would be so relaxed about the start date vs first attendance. In my experience, they've always been really hard over on this.
Jess Reading Yes, it does seem odd that someone who attends week 1 and is off sick for weeks 2 and 3 is fine to keep all their hours and normal dates, but someone who is off sick weeks 1 and 2 shou...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
That's a very good point about not logging L3 content as OTJ during the L2. There may be some L3 stuff that does tick off some L2 KSBs that can be counted, but they will need to make sure their records are crystal clear on what KSBs were covered in all the hours. If you can show an auditor that you knew about it, considered it, took steps to make sure that OTJ wasn't logged where it was only relevant to L3 KSBs, they are likely to be happy with that. Be prepared for them to dig into the detail though.
That's a very good point about not logging L3 content as OTJ during the L2. There may be some L3 stuff that does tick off some L2 KSBs that can be counted, but they will need to make sure their rec...
Ruth Canham-James commented,
I am very pleased to see a sort order and search criteria, but they've just completely removed the search for peer-led posts! I really hope this is a blip whilst they're in the process of sorting it 😕 I'm only ever looking for posts in actual Communities, not the wider guidance.
I am very pleased to see a sort order and search criteria, but they've just completely removed the search for peer-led posts! I really hope this is a blip whilst they're in the process of sorting i...